WTA-SL CHAPTER DISCUSSION @ UVVY
ISLAND, SECOND LIFE
There was a 30 minute
meeting at Uvvy Island 162.220.72 on Floor 4 at 0930 SLT Wednesday January 24.
Topic is: "If you could upload a digital copy of yourself into SL, would
you?" The discussion was headed quite effectively by xyryx Simca, the
first WTA-SL leader to be selected by the Board. Awesome event Simca !!!
TRANSCRIPT :
xyryx Simca: free your mind you are entering the twilight zone!
xyryx Simca: So Emily, would you upload to Sl right now if you could copy yourself non-distructively and do so?
xyryx Simca: you wouldn't be afraid of what you might be getting that copy into?
Emily Lang: well, she would respond to situations like I would
Emily Lang: plus, she'll be immortal
xyryx Simca: But would you want to keep tabs on her anyway whenever you were inworld?
Emily Lang: hmmm...not necessarily
Emily Lang: I'd just be a little curious to what she's up to
xyryx Simca: My fear is that SL is still a bit too wild and unpredictable
Sat Batra: When it is a totally open platform I'll be more comfortable with it's future
xyryx Simca: That should a rollback take place X2 might not make it out of the folds in the envelope
Emily Lang: but this would be a concern I'd have with all uploaded beings, not just my copy
xyryx Simca: so would want to have an x3, etc
xyryx Simca: but I was looking for someone who wanted to go first and that just might be you!
xyryx Simca: totally open platform meaning server side as well..holds breath and succumbs!
xyryx Simca: you seem able to handle the situations as they arise
Emily Lang: hehe....right...uploading a conscious being into such an unstable environment might not be the best of ideas
Emily Lang: hehe...right...I missed the part about doing it RIGHT NOW
Sat Batra: I have yet to figure out whether I'd ever do an all at once upload anyhow
Emily Lang: so I think I'll pass and wait a bit
Elliot Ehrler: Hi. Sorry, some glitches
Arcturus Gregory: how many copies of one's self are enough?
Manoj Undercity : i really dont know how it is to exist as a binary representation of myself
Sat Batra: Depends on whether those copies are networked and can sync up
xyryx Simca: so lots of people willing at some point in the future...]
xyryx Simca: I think you always want to have one copy surviving at all times inworld
xyryx Simca: don't you
Emily Lang: the thing that I never grasped is: would our consciousness be able to pass one day into the computing mediums?
xyryx Simca: maybe our unconscious parts are more ready
Emily Lang: ok...I'd be more interested if I could be inside that copy of my self in the metacerse
xyryx Simca: and I would like the copies inworld to get together every 24hrs and coalesce
Arcturus Gregory: SL would need a better interface with external reality IMO
Arcturus Gregory: and more sensory modalities
Manoj Undercity : like the vivid cyber sexsuit
Sat Batra: Well assume that your avatar right now is a primative copy of yourself. It is just not autonomous.
Sat Batra: How does that change the way you look at it?
xyryx Simca: well, who's to say that once a copy comes inworld that it will ever want anything to do with firstworld?
Arcturus Gregory: reality will always be stranger than SL
xyryx Simca: that is the clincher right now
xyryx Simca: but the control and power all lie in Real world
Emily Lang: I look at my avatar as a sort of extension of myself
Sat Batra: yes... but what if Sl finally becomes sensory immersive?
Sat Batra: Then what?
Arcturus Gregory: VR could be just an added layer of experience for RL
Sat Batra: That amounts to a 'temporary upload'
xyryx Simca: RL/SL immersive?
Elliot Ehrler: If the upload were complete, would there be any difference between 'virtual' and 'real' reality? I don't think so
xyryx Simca: always better to be somewhere in your entirety and not reaching out with an extended body across widening uncontrollable gaps
Arcturus Gregory: i wish there were more web cams in SL - like windows on to RL
xyryx Simca: anyway, when I'm ready I hope some of the rest of you are too cause I would feel a whole lot braver if a couple of us could do it together
xyryx Simca: says the chicken
Sat Batra: Personally I think Sl is a primative technology that will be eclipsed by a whole different platform. A jump like
SL to http pages.
xyryx Simca: Who will be first?
xyryx Simca: How so Sat?
Arcturus Gregory: maybe people with shut-in syndrome (from strokes) will be first to try it
Sat Batra: Discussing whether we'll upload here is kinda moot.
Sat Batra: Well this is not designed for uploading any more thaan a web page is
xyryx Simca: the discussion needs to be held to see what the issues will be and check them off one at a time before departure, dintcha think?
Arcturus Gregory: because they will consider it a step up even now
xyryx Simca: and if you had your own servers..well that would offer more security
xyryx Simca: right now I agree things are primitive
Sat Batra uploads into the google datbase
Emily Lang: but will the copy of myself living in SL be in any way connected to me? (other than the fact that she is a copy of me)?
Lucifer Darrow: I wouldn't want to upload to a primitive environment like this
xyryx Simca: no Sat, become a search engine like Anders
Sat Batra: Actually I have a distrubted Sat idea.
xyryx Simca: Why not Lucifer? what are the present pitfalls?
Sat Batra: Post singularity I guess.
Sat Batra winks
xyryx Simca: umm
xyryx Simca: when the singularity comes it will be too late Sat
Lucifer Darrow: xyryx, because it would be hellish to be stuck in a low rez env
Lucifer Darrow: I'll wait until VR is as rich or richer than RL
xyryx Simca: yes, but on the forums ...well maybe if you were low rez as well, it would not seem such a problem
Lucifer Darrow: in terms of sensory data and experience
Sat Batra: I'll wait until I can sync memory realtime with copies of myself and shift perspective seamlessly from one to another.
xyryx Simca: like slowing down time...all relative to your own experience of it
Lucifer Darrow: even then I expect I'll upload a copy, not a transfer
Sat Batra shrugs
Lucifer Darrow nods to Sat
Emily Lang: by the time we can nondestructively scan our brains and upload them, VR will be fully immersive
Arcturus Gregory: it would be nice if we could come and go from VR, like accessing robots or particle clouds in RL
xyryx Simca: vr may be immersive but what if you have run out of personal time on that RL body?
Sat Batra: Personally I suspect the the upload idea itself is off the mark.
xyryx Simca: off the mark how so?
Lucifer Darrow: when my RL copy dies only my uploaded copies will survive (hopefully)
xyryx Simca: hmm
xyryx Simca: but why not take the opportunity now to upload a spare copy to here
Emily Lang: oh I see ... so uploading as a way to achieve immortality ... but then, if my consciousness does not sip in into the uploaded person, how is this different from me eaving a child behind (or a clone) before I die?
Sat Batra: But the upload idea itself is based on a primative computer paradigm.
Arcturus Gregory: emily - i think consciousness can be uploaded. but it would be hard to do it without being sure! :)
Sat Batra: I see things as moving towards a seemless melding of RW and the digital. Thing like Sl will overlay with RL. Well spawn subprocesses of ourselves that move around and do things, etc.
Lucifer Darrow: consciousness doesn't transfer between copies, that implies some sort of soul
xyryx Simca: my vision would be that the uploaded copy would be autonomous as far as the original remaining behind in real life
Sat Batra: Exactly Lucifer
Sat Batra: what we can transfer is memory (could transfer)
Sat Batra: with memories of other Sats I would essentially be those Sats
Lucifer Darrow: Yes it may be possible to sync memories, at least between uploads
xyryx Simca: and getting back to the original question..we are assuming that you can upload a nondestructive copy into Sl leaving behind a replica in Rl
Manoj Undercity : i doubt all of this would be free of cost
xyryx Simca: heheh...lindes of lindens
Emily Lang: initially, only for the rich and famous
Sat Batra: Well if it could be done right now. no way.
Manoj Undercity : lol
Sat Batra: Why bother?
Lucifer Darrow: Imposing a memory on a bio brain is much higher tech
Lucifer Darrow: If there was a way to upload a copy to SL now I would only do it if I had the right to self-terminate inside SL
xyryx Simca: to see what the problems are before there are any necessities
Sat Batra: Another autonomous Sat walking around in here would annoy the fuck out of me frankly.
Arcturus Gregory: imagine your consciousness on Linden servers!
Sat Batra: Steal my thunder!
xyryx Simca: of course, selfterminate is granted
xyryx Simca: then you would be ready now?
xyryx Simca: class 5
Lucifer Darrow: Yes I would make a copy in SL now under those conditions
xyryx Simca: why would it annoy you...I would be envious and remorseful at the same time
Sat Batra: And in any case a copy is not you anymore than something your write, draw, program, or slough off like a buger or dander.
xyryx Simca: kk. now it sounds like we might have some takers
Arcturus Gregory: it would be a nice backup in case of death, ANY kind of consciousness backup, even into a sensory isolation tank, IMO
Manoj Undercity : i refelct thru it
Lucifer Darrow: A copy starts out as you (by definition)
Sat Batra: The 'you' is this particular instance of the pattern of your identity.
Manoj Undercity : for me, the present avatar is also a copy of me
xyryx Simca: agreed arc!
Lucifer Darrow: it would diverge fairly quickly from the copy in RL
Manoj Undercity : Lucifer. like yours ?
xyryx Simca: of course..bifurcation guaranteed
xyryx Simca: and no turning back
xyryx Simca: so who would go now if given the chance?
Lucifer Darrow: Manoj, I only have one identity now, no copies
Manoj Undercity : oh !
Lucifer Darrow: The word copy implies more than one instance of the pattern
xyryx Simca: and i have found it off-putting to see doppelgangers in Sl
Manoj Undercity : ah !
Manoj Undercity : i seen plenty of darth vaders here
Sat Batra: objects^
Sat Batra: think onject like in object ori3ented programming
Lucifer Darrow: what doppelgangers?
Arcturus Gregory: if the copy evolves differently than you, presumably you might be able to re-merge at frequent intervals,like synching
xyryx Simca: copy only occurs at point of copying..from there on there is no longer a true copy
xyryx Simca: no longer an original
Sat Batra nods
xyryx Simca: yes..I had hoped to be able to do daily syncs of Sl copies if amenable to them
xyryx Simca: but probably they would refuse
Sat Batra: That's the distributed Sat path to immortality
Lucifer Darrow: I would be somewhat annoyed if someone else copied my SL av, but I wouldn't try to sue them or anything like that
xyryx Simca: hmmm
Manoj Undercity : right.. what about the linden server moving our entire body in SL to another server and to another environment without our permission
Arcturus Gregory: would you think a person could copyright themselves?
xyryx Simca: then someone should copy it so that you have that experience and no how to deal with it before sending multiple copies inworld
Manoj Undercity : what say u then ?
Manoj Undercity : they just shift us to a test grid
Sat Batra: There's no tactile stimulation
Sat Batra: olofactory input is missing
Lucifer Darrow: Sat, you wouldn't be giving up anything to do so now
xyryx Simca: how do you know what the tradeoffs would be until you would go in?
Sat Batra: When Sl is no longer centrally administered, and completely OSS, and much more advanced in encompassing all senses... sure maybe a Sat will live there.
Sat Batra: Meat Sat will still wonder why he ever bothered making a copy though.
xyryx Simca: kk. valid points Sat!
xyryx Simca: So Lucifer would go now?
Lucifer Darrow: If there is no cost to make a copy, sure
Lucifer Darrow: There is nothing to lose
Manoj Undercity : that may never come forth Sat ,unless there r feasible and comparable changes in real world economics for running servers, electricity ,etc
xyryx Simca: So, if Lucifer signs on then I would sign on as well!
Sat Batra: We have buttloads of clean renewable energy that is cheap and available today.
Sat Batra: geothermal
xyryx Simca: and I am sure that we could get a sponsor to pick up the costs
Emily Lang: there are ethical considerations in uploading a person in SL - will she be happy, will she die, etc.
Mo Enzyme: what are we signing on too?
Lucifer Darrow: The benefit is to be able to interact with my copy which would be way cool
xyryx Simca: your copy in Sl might wonder the very same thing about the blood bones version left behind in Rl and try to get that version inside as well!lol
Lucifer Darrow: My SL copy would understand that you can't move and bio copy inside, you can only make another copy which isn't the same
xyryx Simca: So, part of this was to go to another sim for a visit but we are running overtime and I think there are points still to be worked thru here
Arcturus Gregory: if i could synch memories, having a copy of me in SL would expand my time and opportunity for life experiences
Manoj Undercity : my SL copy is a primitive means of moving into another dimension..even say the virtual dimension
Lucifer Darrow: move a^ bio
xyryx Simca: that would be difficult because Arc you think the copy in Sl will agree to that?
Arcturus Gregory: if he was a copy of me, he would :)
xyryx Simca: no way of knowing until they get in here and then the two of you have that discussion
Sat Batra: Funny thing is SL copy would be like, "HA! It worked!" RL copy would be like, "Huh nothing's changed except there's some bastard out there that thinks it is me now. (And takes all my jokes)."
xyryx Simca: well then you know yourself wayyy beter than I know myself
xyryx Simca: lol
Arcturus Gregory: yes it's amatter of knowing one's self. why would i run away from myself?
Sat Batra: And the copy would know *ALL* your embarassments, flaws, and hidden secrets.
xyryx Simca: the envy grows...
Manoj Undercity : Simc... i disagre strongly
Lucifer Darrow: oh oh, your copy might try to blackmail you
Sat Batra: yup
xyryx Simca: Man..how so?
Manoj Undercity : other people could in fact know me better than i know myself
Manoj Undercity : thats why we always encourage critical reflections
Manoj Undercity : i will only have a view relative to my own
Sat Batra: as it is a separate being
Arcturus Gregory: If a person was mean, they might be mean to themselves. They should be used to it :)
Sat Batra: which did not actually commit those crimes
Sat Batra: The copy would not be liable for the past crimes of the original...
Manoj Undercity : but no man is an island
xyryx Simca: but part of who you are is determined by whom you seek out to provide different povs
Arcturus Gregory: right manoj -
Manoj Undercity : Sat.. what u say is like attaining nirvana by escaping karma
Lucifer Darrow: The liabilities of copies is unexplored territory, far to early to make definitive pronouncments
xyryx Simca: and of course if you did not provide the copy with any Lindens..it might be rough going in here for awhile
Sat Batra: Well that's how I'd judge it.
Mo Enzyme: hmmmmm, I think my Second Life persona is a bit different than my RL. Perhaps a reflection of some of my aspects, but we generally behave differently.
Sat Batra grins
xyryx Simca: might make the Sl copy1 be more beholding
Mo Enzyme: Lucifer has met me IRL and says I'm much "nicer" ;)
xyryx Simca: ROFL!
Arcturus Gregory: what is that a bat?
Manoj Undercity : ho ho ho
xyryx Simca: well yes, we could all send bots i first to test the water
xyryx Simca: but not quite the same
xyryx Simca: LMFAO!
Lucifer Darrow: xyryx, what do you mean "send bots first"?
Manoj Undercity : my question at this time is : would u give citizenship rights to SL copy ?
xyryx Simca: well, may libsecondlifers have bots running around
Sat Batra: SL copy would demand it.
Sat Batra: wouldn't you?
Manoj Undercity : can SL copy if attains independent consciousness, draw money from ur account for SL commerce ?
xyryx Simca: many avatars cannot tell the bots from the avatars and start IM'ing the bots and putting moves on them LOL
Mo Enzyme: Yeah I think my SL copy might be a bit more of a "bad boy", I don't know what I would do if given the power.
xyryx Simca: citizenship in Sl YES!
Lucifer Darrow: xyryx, right so what does sending a bot in first do for you?
Arcturus Gregory: A lot of people like their SL avatars for being different from them, not copies. Kind of like an experiment in being someone different.
Mo Enzyme: /nods to Arcturus
Sat Batra: SL Sat looks just like me.
xyryx Simca: gives you some control and more distance than from the avatar and can program it to act more independently than you sitting here pulling the puppet strings
Sat Batra chortles
Manoj Undercity : NO WAY
Sat Batra: yup I'm a hot chick with white skin Manjoj
Little Red Dragon: Mind my breath!!
Lucifer Darrow: I don't see how a bot would give you more relevant info than an av
Manoj Undercity : god save the queen
xyryx Simca: Sorry..I must leave now..prior Rl commitment. Please stay and continue discussion..I loved meeting/hearing from all of you..helps me plan my futures better!